Intiminator review from a novice racer

First off, a little background on me: Novice racer with the CMRA, #235. 2009 is my first full season of racing, and I generally run about 4 or 5 seconds off the top experts. I'm still gradually improving and hope to be a couple seconds quicker by the end of the season. I weigh 165 w/o gear and probably 180 with.

Bike setup:

Rear:
Penske triple
650 lb/in spring
30mm sag
13.875" effective shock length

Front w/ emulators:
Damper rod holes drilled to 10mm, rebound hole welded shut
2.5 turns on the emulators
.90 springs
30mm sag
120mm oil level
Maxima 20wt oil
forks 10mm above triple

Front w/ Intiminators:
Same as above except using Amsoil 5wt oil


I have used the Intiminators for two race weekends so far, Hallett back in June and MSR Cresson a couple weekends ago. I was originally going to post a review after Hallett, but that track was difficult for me to learn so almost all of my attention budget that weekend was spent just navigating the track. I wanted to give the Intiminators one more shot at Cresson, a track where I am a lot more comfortable.

The schedule for CMRA weekends is practice trackday on Friday, endurance practice/race on Saturday, and sprint practice/races on Sunday. I started the Hallett weekend on Friday with the emulators to learn the track and get a baseline. Hallett was a very difficult track for me to learn, and I still hadn't figured out my line by the end of the day. I put the Intiminators in that evening so I could test them out during the endurance practice session the next morning. Initial impressions from just riding around in the pits was very positive. The forks felt very plush, and most bumps simply weren't felt through the bars. Square edged bumps like power cords and potholes were very smooth, and the front end seemed like it just floated over them with zero drama. Based on initial impressions, I was really looking forward to getting the Intiminators on the track.

After Saturday morning practice, I have to admit I had mixed feelings about the Intiminators. On one hand, their performance over bumps was awesome, and it made choosing a line a lot simpler. I could go right over rough patches of pavement that I had avoided the previous day. The bumps weren't completely gone, but they upset the bike much less than with the emulators. The down side to the Intiminators was that I was having problems on corner entry. The front wanted to push wide, and I couldn't place the bike exactly where I wanted it on entry. Once I was back on the throttle, I didn't have any problems, but off throttle I didn't like the way the front felt. I found that I was having to trail the brakes in order to make the front turn where I wanted it. At my current skill level, I am still really uncomfortable trail braking, and I prefer to be off the brakes before turning in if possible. If I turned like how I usually do, I would miss the apex by a foot or two.

Rich Desmond, my endurance teammate and fellow forum member, also took my bike out during Saturday practice. Rich is a quicker rider than I am, and he also has previous experience at Hallett. He only made a single lap before he aborted saying he couldn't get the bike to turn at all compared to the endurance bike. His endurance bike is also an SV, and besides the front valving, is set up almost identically to my SV. We completely went over both bikes, but couldn't find anything that would make my bike that much harder to turn. If anything, it should have turned slightly quicker since my bike had a higher swingarm pivot height. The only differences we could come up with was that he had a slightly shorter wheelbase due to gearing, and he was on slicks while I was on DOTs. I eliminated slicks as a variable the next day, but they didn't make an appreciable difference.

The endurance race served to confirm my initial impressions. Rich's bike turned a lot easier than mine, but it would also get much more upset over rough pavement.

(cont'd)

I was able to push the bike much harder for the Sunday sprint races, but I was still forcing myself to trailbrake in order to get the bike to hold its line. I ended up going about 2 seconds faster than my fastest endurance lap, but I think I would have done the same with or without the Intiminators. I can't say that they helped nor hindered me, probably because I never pushed the bike hard enough that weekend. Overall, I left Hallett with mixed feelings. While I really liked their response over bumps, I didn't like that I was forced to trailbrake in order to get the bike to turn.

I left the Intiminators in for the next round at MSR Cresson going clockwise. I had only run this direction at MSR once before, but I felt like I would get to grips with it much faster than Hallett and maybe I could start pushing the bike a little bit. Friday practice again confirmed my impressions from Hallett. Being more comfortable with the track, I was able to concentrate a lot more on what the bike was doing. I rode my bike and Rich's bike back to back and the difference this time was much more apparent. I took much less energy to place Rich's bike where I wanted it, and I wasn't having any problems hitting the apex.

By Sunday, I had become comfortable enough with the track to start approaching the limits of the tire, and that is also when I found the biggest difference between the emulators and the Intiminators. I have had a few front slides before on the emulators, and they were all non-events. The tire would slide a little bit, but then it would hook up again and keep going with minimum drama. In my second sprint race, I had the front slide going into a very quick series of right-handers (top of 5th). Instead of recovering immediately, the bike went into a wobble as it gripped, slipped, and gripped again. This went on for a few cycles, and I thought the bike was going to pitch me off, but it did eventually get stable. By this time, I was well off my line with no chance of making the corner so I had to run off the track carrying quite a bit of speed. I wasn't able to get the bike stopped in time and ended up running into and through the chainlink fence at the edge of the property at probably around 60 mph. Thankfully, the bike and rider were both relatively ok, but that pretty much convinced me to go back to the emulators for now.

I think the Intiminators show promise, but with the current recommended setup, I would not use them on the track. I don't ride on the street anymore, but I think they would preform excellently on a street bike. I am aware that there is a different setup meant for racing that Spears sells, but I still haven't contacted them to see if they will tell me exactly what that is. I may give the Intiminators another shot in the future when I have some time to mess with the tuning, but I will be going back to the emulators for the remainder of the race season.

I am not an expert but the problems you describe scream out geometry rather than suspension.

Has Rich tried out the Intiminators on his bike yet?

Currently, do you use your bike for street riding or do you also use your intiminators for track use also? Just trying to find out where your experience and advice come from. Thanks, btw I love my intiminators for the street.

Street and dirt.

Was going to do track days this year but the economy kind of got in the way.

Next year I want to do a track school, probably Kenny Schwanz Suzuki School.
After that, track days.

I am not an expert but the problems you describe scream out geometry rather than suspension.

Has Rich tried out the Intiminators on his bike yet?

Geometry is identical to Rich's bike which doesn't have the problems I am experiencing on mine. I don't know if he has tried them on his bike yet.

Geometry is identical to Rich's bike which doesn't have the problems I am experiencing on mine. I don't know if he has tried them on his bike yet.
I know the intiminators do wonders on the street! But how the fair against emulators on the track is a good question. Thanks for the review! Mine for sure feel good in the twisties but all I can say now is that they are better than the stock setup:).

I'm a new guy here, I was one of the first guys to get Intiminators from Ricor for free in exchange for posting my review of them on a Harley forum back in Febuary. I was just browsing around looking for information trying to help Ricor out by writing up some basic suspension tuning explanations when I found this thread and decided to jump in. Please forgive me, but I decided to jump in for safety reasons. I have been riding many years and have seen too many people hurt. Including me, I went through a fence once. OK, twice.

The Intiminators do significantly change how the front end works. Anytime you make significant suspension changes, you have to be very careful on your first test rides. This is especially true if you want to push the limits on a race track. What feels good at 9.0 can lead to disaster at 9.9. That has always been true and will always be true.

monqy - You certainly deserve a lot of respect for trying to push the Intiminators to the limit on a race track. Pretty gutsy to keep pushing the limits of a front wheel slide. I hope you accept my "opinion" in the same good faith I offer it.

You made two mistakes. The first was repeatedly pushing the limits of a front wheel slide. The second was not fully understanding how the Intiminators affected the handling of your bike. When you found you could not hold the line you wanted, you should have brought it back to the pits and thought about it for awhile.

The following is all conjecture on my part, so feel free to debate any point.

The Intiminators allow the wheel to move in compression with much less resistance than previous set ups you used. 5wt oil also reduced rebound damping. In your case of front wheel slide, this probably caused a small front wheel hop, loss of traction, and through the fence you went.

The other thing that happened is the Intiminators tend to use significantly less fork travel over bumps and during braking. That makes the front end ride higher. Even though you had the same static fork sag as you had before, dynamically over bumps and braking, your front end was higher. Having the front end too high (too much rear chassis pitch) will tend to make the front tire wash out when you try to force it around a corner.

I recommend people set the chassis pitch (moving the triple clamps up or down on the forks) so that the bike will hold its line in a corner and still be neutral on the bars. Not all corners, speeds, road surface, body position etc will be the same. You have to find an "average" turn and tune chassis pitch to that situation. By "neutral on the bars" I mean that after counter steering / weight shifting to initiate the turn, you should be able to have only minimal to no hand pressure on the bars. The bike will just stay in a constant turn until you push in some correction.

If you find yourself fighting the bars to keep the bike turning as desired, change chassis pitch accordingly. If you are getting wheel hop, you need more damping. There are many other factors involved in getting the bike to turn, but that will turn into a very long discussion.

Street set ups will always vary from race set ups. I hope this helps keep you and others safe.

PS, one more hint. When you figure out something that makes you that much faster, don't tell anyone until you win a race or 3.

I seem to remember Brian from Ricor recommending 10W for racing, and yeah, drop your forks through 10mm and watch the steering improve, I've set mine at 15mm,

stF

http://www.spearsenterprises.com/

I talked with Gregg Spears at Spears Racing. He has partnered with Ricor and has developed race specs for the Intiminators. Race specs are quite different from street specs. He verified the following basic concepts. These general concepts will apply to all motorcycles, street, race and dirt.

You cannot simply pull out the Race Tech Emulators and replace them with Ricor Intiminators. They work totally differently and require different set ups.

You should NOT use street spec Intiminators on the race track. (I suppose you could if you are really, really slow, and have other aspects of the bike set up correctly.)

10w oil in the forks is just the start of the changes needed in race set ups. Not all fork oils perform the same, even if the claimed viscosity is identical.

You can drill the compression damping holes.

You cannot weld up rebound damping holes. The Intiminators act as a secondary seal to prevent oil from bypassing the stock seals during rebound. You must keep the rebound hole(s) open.

You must set fork and shock rider sag correctly.

You must set chassis pitch correctly.

However, the Intiminators tend to use less fork travel so the front end will ride a bit higher. Therefore, you will need to lower the triple clamps to compensate. Static chassis pitch (sitting on the bike in the garage) will be different from dynamic chassis pitch (actually riding the bike). He agreed with my explanation above about setting up the bike to be “neutral on the bars” while in a turn. That is critical.

It is common to have to soften shock settings, less preload and less damping. This is because the Intiminators reduce front to rear coupling. If the forks are too stiff in compression, the force from a road bump tends to lift the front end. That transmits a load to the shock spring causing it to preload before the back tire actually hits the bump. Since the Intiminators allow the forks to compress quicker over bumps, less force is transmitted to the shocks, and the shocks can be softened up a bit.

Fork spring rates can generally be reduced to the next lowest of the generally recommended rates. This is because the Intiminator wheel circuit allows the forks to compress, while the chassis circuit supports the chassis. The hydraulics do more of the work, so the spring has to do less.

The old concepts of high and low speed compression damping do not apply to the Intiminators. The new concepts are wheel movement isolated from chassis movement. You can read the explanation at Ricor’s web site. I am in the process of writing up a more detailed explanation. So far it is about 6 pages long, but it starts with very basic information for the guy just starting out.

For those without any racing experience, here is an example how a change that is insignificant on a street bike can be of major significance on a race bike. A simple sprocket change has virtually no effect on the handling of a street bike. On a race bike, however, it will change how the power gets to the ground, that will change swing arm angle and chassis pitch, that will change front to rear weight bias, and that will require a seperate change in the chassis to reestablish the correct chassis pitch and weight bias. Street tuned vs race tuned Intiminators are similar.

Gregg and I agree, the most common cause of crashes is the loose nut holding the bars. If your bike does not feel right, get off and fix it. (No offense monqy, it applies to all of us.)

Gregg regrets he cannot spend his entire day on the forum answering questions for free. He has a shop to run. His riders and his first few test customers are decreasing lap times and winning races with appropriately race tuned Intiminators and proper chassis set up. He will be happy to assist his customers with the details necessary to set up a race bike with race spec Intiminators. Details that go far beyond the basic concepts I have out lined here. Keep an eye on his web site for “official” announcements.

Now you tell us this? I just finished installing a set of intimidators on my race bike with 5W oil. I guess I will dump it and put in 10W oil, and see how it goes. So far I can't say I'm really impressed as the website had no literature stating these should not be raced on, and there was no option to select street vs race tuning. When they got to my doorstep they had "street tune" printed on the sticker.

XLXR, I really appreciate the feedback, and I wanted to clear up a few points you brought up.

First of all, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I had repeated front slides; the only time I had the front wheel slide with the Intiminators was the time it went into a wobble and I ran off track. The previous times where I said the front pushed, what I meant was that the bike did not track how I expected it to. Besides the front not tracking, I did not have any indication that the setup was dangerous until the Intiminators failed to control the front sliding. Yes, you are probably correct when you say I should have taken them out immediately after they didn't turn into the corner like I was used to, but I wanted to give them a chance. I am not experienced enough to tell within a few sessions (on a track I didn't really know) whether to take them out or not.

At the time I tested the Intiminators out, the impression I had was that these were indeed a drop-in replacement for the emulators. I had even expressed my concern to Brian about the 5W being enough rebound for track use, and his reply was that 5W will give me the best traction. I was skeptical, but went ahead and tried it out as he recommended. Brian was fully aware that I was going to do back-to-back testing on the racetrack with the emulators, which is why he graciously offered them free of charge the same he did for you. My review was on this basis that they were a drop-in replacement for the emulators, and I still stand by my conclusion that they are not safe with the setup that was recommended back then.

I also had the chance to talk to Gregg shortly after I posted my review. It was a very interesting conversation, and you reiterated much of what we talked about. He has done the development work required and that is what you are paying for when you buy his setup. I simply did not have the time/expertise to do similar development. If you're racing and don't want to develop your own setup with the Intiminators, it's probably a good idea to go ahead and buy them from Gregg as he has done the hard work already.

Again, I agree with you that the Intiminators definitely need a different setup for racing. I just don't have time right now to find that setup, so that is why I have gone back to the emulators. I do plan on trying them again in the near future after incorporating the changes that Gregg suggested, and I will update this thread when I do.

Regarding the conjectures on how they function:

You say they allow the wheel to move in compression with much less resistance, but that they also use significantly less fork travel and ride higher dynamically. If they have less resistance to moving in compression, wouldn't they use MORE fork travel? They would have to either be stiffer in compression and use less fork travel/ride higher OR be softer in compression and use more fork travel/ride lower.

Also, I disagree when you say that the concepts of high/low speed damping do not apply to the Intiminators. Sure, the mechanism is intertia based, but that only means that it is now a function of acceleration instead of velocity. I think in reality it ends up being the same thing. Within the amount of travel we have for front suspension, high velocity will be synonymous to high acceleration. Whether the physical mechanism responds to velocity or acceleration, the final result still ends up being low speed damping to control weight transfer and high speed damping to control bump compliance.

Now you tell us this?

That's why I jumped on this forum and talked to Gregg as quickly as I could.

I tried to write a detailed response, but it got so convoluted I deleted it. I tend to agree the street tuned Intiminators should not be used on the track unless the rider understands the concepts I briefly explained in my previous posts, has the experience to be able to interpret how they change the handling of the bike and make appropriate changes to riding style and suspension/chassis set up.

I'll be off line for several days, but will return next week.

I tried the street intiminators on my G2 race bike during a couple of track days. Worked my way from 10 wt to 20 wt to get rebound damping. Brian @ Ricor sent me loads of shims and the tool to change them. Gut feel tells me that I've probably to go to stiffer shims to increase compression damping. I agree with the dynamic ride height comments above although I didn't notice a large difference in turn-in effort.

I've since gone back to my forks with the ZX6r internal cartridge and find that combination hard to beat since I can control both rebound & compression damping with a flat head screw driver.

What is the stock shim stack? I may play around to stiffen it up a little.

I question whether race applications require the secondary compression valving - not too many tracks with potholes!

I would like to know gregg' race tune version of the intims... what does it consist of besides messing with the shims, springs, oil weight, etc?

I would like to know gregg' race tune version of the intims... what does it consist of besides messing with the shims, springs, oil weight, etc?


:rolleyes: Experience and wisdom that was earned by finding out what works and what doesn't and if he is willing ... you have to pay for it.

How much does this wisdom cost?

I don't know ... ask him.

Google is such a wonderful tool.

http://www.spearsenterprises.com/

Now you tell us this?

That's why I jumped on this forum even though I don't have an SV or do any track racing. I had to contact Gregg Spears to verify my experience with the Intiminators in my Harley Roadster. I seem to have developed a new hobby of helping guys with suspension on a few different forums and have noticed some common difficulties in getting people to understand how the Intiminators work and why they require a different bike set up. Keep in mind street set ups need not be nearly as detailed as race set ups.

I can't comment on what Brian at Ricor said. I don't work for Ricor, and like you, I have to call him directly with questions. I have volunteered to write up an explanation about Intimiators, but just have not had the time to complete it yet.

monqy - The other guys on this forum owe you a big favor for bringing out this problem with the Intiminators. I hope they don't repeat your experience. Any kind of suspension tuning should be approached very cautiously on the first test rides so the rider can re-adapt his riding style and fine tune as necessary.

Compare your ride experience and explanation with that of “Currently”. He was able to feel and explain the differences adding Intiminators made in much greater detail. He also spent a lot more time on the street which provided more time to adapt. Pushing the limits on a race track demands much more precise suspension tuning then street riding.

You say they allow the wheel to move in compression with much less resistance, but that they also use significantly less fork travel and ride higher dynamically. If they have less resistance to moving in compression, wouldn't they use MORE fork travel? They would have to either be stiffer in compression and use less fork travel/ride higher OR be softer in compression and use more fork travel/ride lower.

Look at your Intiminators. Push down on the spring loaded collar and look at the ports that open up. That is the wheel circuit/inertia valve opening in response to upward wheel movement. Those ports blow off virtually all hydraulic compression damping and let the wheel move up as fast as the fork spring, stiction and weight of the wheel will allow.

If that was the only oil circuit, the front of the bike would fall down just as fast as the wheel moved up, like you say in your quote above.

However the second oil circuit, known as the chassis circuit, is the shim stack under the big nut. When the front of the chassis falls down from forward weight transfer during brake dive, oil is forced through those shims. The resistance to oil flow through the shims holds the front of the chassis up, resisting fork compression due to brake dive. Dynamically, the forks will compress less and ride higher, (assuming the spring rate and preload remain the same).

Essentially, the Intiminator hydraulics do more work so the springs can do less.

If you shorten the preload spacer equal to the distance of the Intiminators add, the STATIC sag and chassis pitch measurements will remain the same. However, from a DYNAMIC point of view, the Intiminators will hold the front end higher while riding. You can’t measure this difference in the garage. Therefore, you have to use the “neutral on the bars” method I described earlier to determine the optimal chassis set up. That is in addition to getting the front and rear spring rates and damping curves to match, which was mentioned by “Currently” mentioned in his ride report.

From a dynamic point of view, to get the front end down to where it was before adding Intiminators, you need to either reduce fork spring preload, get a lighter spring, or lower the triple clamps. Each will have a different overall effect on overall handling.

Whether the physical mechanism responds to velocity or acceleration, the final result still ends up being low speed damping to control weight transfer and high speed damping to control bump compliance.

That’s true, if you equate low speed damping with the chassis circuit/shim stack, and high speed damping with the wheel circuit/inertia valve. However, I don't use those terms in describing Intiminators to avoid confusion with how conventional forks work.

Acceleration is a change in velocity. If the oil is accelerating through the holes of a damper tube, the damping force will increase as the velocity increases. The shim stack was developed to prevent hydro- locking that occurs when the acceleration (or velocity) gets so high, the oil cannot move through the holes fast enough. Part of the shim stack provides low speed damping; another part provides high speed damping.

High and low speed refers to how fast the lower fork tube must move as the wheel goes over a bump. A bump with a short, steep up ramp will create a high shaft speed which forces oil through the high speed damping shims. A bump with a long, shallow up ramp will create a low shaft speed which forces oil through the low speed damping shims. (This is an over simplified explanation.)

With conventional forks, when the wheel hits a bump, the hydraulic damping resists fork compression as the wheel is forced up. (Wheel weight, stiction, and spring resistance also resist fork compression.) Under hard braking, the same hydraulic damping that resists fork compression due to the wheel moving vertically is also resisting fork compression due to the additional weight moving forward onto the forks. In this case, high and low speed compression damping are essentially working together regardless if the wheel is moving up or if the chassis is moving down.

If you are braking hard with conventional forks, your forks may already be compressed to a point where a small bump may not be able to compress them any more. All the force of the bump is then transmitted up the chassis to the rider, shocks and rear tire.

With Intiminators, when the wheel hits a bump, only the spring, tire weight, and stiction are resisting fork compression because the wheel circuit/inertia valve has blown off all hydraulic compression damping (both high and low speed in the conventional sense). There for, much less force is transferred to the chassis, rider, shock and rear tire because there is much less resistance to vertical movement of the front wheel.

Under hard braking with the Intiminators, the wheel circuit/inertia valve remains closed (assuming the wheel is on a flat road so the wheel does not move up). The chassis circuit/shim stack continues to resist fork compression due to forward weight transfer.

If the wheel hits a bump under hard braking, the wheel circuit/inertia valve blows off only the hydraulic compression damping related to vertical movement of the wheel. That has no effect on the hydraulic resistance of the chassis circuit/shim stack which remains intact to resist fork compression and forward chassis pitch due to forward weight transfer from brake dive.

From the Intiminator point of view, hydraulic high speed damping is blown off by the wheel circuit/inertia valve in response to wheel movement compressing the forks.

However, at the same time, hydraulic low speed compression damping is maintained by the chassis circuit/shim stack resisting fork compression due to forward weight transfer from brake dive and/or vertical wheel movement.

Using too high a viscosity oil to increase rebound damping will interfer with the control the Intiminator can exert over compression damping. I suspect, I repeat suspect, the percecption of lack of rebound damping may largely be due to the rider not properly perceiving and understanding changes in bike handling after adding Intiminators.

I’ll be off line for the next 3 or 4 days. That should give you enough time to digest all that. Based on the other recent posts this morning, it seems the race set up with street tuned Intiminators will need more development work than the average track rider is able to do, especially with limited track time.

...Under hard braking with the Intiminators, the wheel circuit/inertia valve remains closed (assuming the wheel is on a flat road so the wheel does not move up). The chassis circuit/shim stack continues to resist fork compression due to forward weight transfer.

If the wheel hits a bump under hard braking, the wheel circuit/inertia valve blows off only the hydraulic compression damping related to vertical movement of the wheel. That has no effect on the hydraulic resistance of the chassis circuit/shim stack which remains intact to resist fork compression and forward chassis pitch due to forward weight transfer from brake dive.

From the Intiminator point of view, hydraulic high speed damping is blown off by the wheel circuit/inertia valve in response to wheel movement compressing the forks.

However, at the same time, hydraulic low speed compression damping is maintained by the chassis circuit/shim stack resisting fork compression due to forward weight transfer from brake dive and/or vertical wheel movement...

Not physically possible for it to work this way. Once the port opens the damping is reduced. You can't simultaneously have 2 different amounts of damping.

Not physically possible for it to work this way. Once the port opens the damping is reduced. You can't simultaneously have 2 different amounts of damping.

The Race Tech Emulator can't, the Ricor Intiminator can. You are confusing how the Race Tech Emulators work with how the Ricor Intiminators work.

The Emulator has only one oil circuit consisting of a shim stack. Both wheel moving up and chassis moving down compresses the forks and pushes oil through the valving. So technically you are correct in saying you can't have 2 different amounts of damping, but you are referring to overall damping of a single hydraulic circuit.

The Ricor Intiminators have 2 separate hydraulic circuits. One is the Inertia valve circuit which allows rapid upward wheel movement such as the wheel hitting a bump in the road. The second is the shim stack circuit which resists fork dive.

The Intiminators isolate the two different movements that cause fork compression. Upward wheel movement is separated from downward chassis movement and a different hydraulic control is exerted over both. There is some overlap between the two circuits, and they both work together.

Ricor's website has a video of the Intiminator working in a fork.

The Race Tech Emulator can't, the Ricor Intiminator can. You are confusing how the Race Tech Emulators work with how the Ricor Intiminators work.

The Emulator has only one oil circuit consisting of a shim stack. Both wheel moving up and chassis moving down compresses the forks and pushes oil through the valving. So technically you are correct in saying you can't have 2 different amounts of damping, but you are referring to overall damping of a single hydraulic circuit.

The Ricor Intiminators have 2 separate hydraulic circuits. One is the Inertia valve circuit which allows rapid upward wheel movement such as the wheel hitting a bump in the road. The second is the shim stack circuit which resists fork dive.

The Intiminators isolate the two different movements that cause fork compression. Upward wheel movement is separated from downward chassis movement and a different hydraulic control is exerted over both. There is some overlap between the two circuits, and they both work together.

Ricor's website has a video of the Intiminator working in a fork.

I'm not confusing the two, and understand quite well how the Intiminators work.
Once the port opens, it allows oil to flow through it as the fork compresses, greatly decreasing compression damping. It's irrelevant whether the bike is coming down or the wheel is going up, as long as the port is open. So if you hit a bump while hard on the brakes (or a series of ripples, as is common on racetrack braking zones or approaching an intersection on the street.) the port opens, the compression damping goes away and the front of the bike drops.

The basic point is that at any given instant in time there is a total amount of area available for oil to flow through, some from the shim stack and some from the port. The amount of area from the port may be zero, or it may be open and adding a lot, but it can't be both simultaneously. Therefore you can't say that the open port is allowing the wheel to come while at the same time the shim stack is preventing the front of the bike from dropping under braking loads. If the port's open, the oil has a large path to flow through and there's very little compression damping.

I know you think you understand what I think I tried to explain, but I don't think you really know what I think I am trying to get you to understand.....

Sorry Rich, but I can't explain it any better. Regardless of your past experience with suspension, you don't seem to understand the 2 different hydraulic circuits in the Intiminator, how they work, and how they different from cartridge or damper rod forks.

Intiminators will not fix other suspension problems. The fact that other aspects of suspension need to be retuned indicate they are doing something differently.

Stay tuned.

I want to say thanks for every ones input this was an awesome read. I run the emulators in my track bike and was considering the Intiminator to see how they felt. I may have to get another set of forks for the race bike just to test them out.

I'm trying to follow this conversation, and it seems that XLXR and Rich may be talking past each other (though I could certainly misunderstand).

It seems to me that XLXR is saying that there are simultaneously two different damping rates because under one circumstance (the wheel moving upward due to encountering a bump in the road) the wheel circuit/inertia valve opens providing very little resistance and allowing the wheel to move quickly, and under another circumstance (under force from the chassis, e.g. brake dive) the oil is forced instead through the shims in the chassis circuit, providing significant resistance.

It seems to me that Rich's statement "You can't simultaneously have 2 different amounts of damping" shouldn't be taken to mean that it isn't possible to possess the described two independent circuits, but rather that at one instant in time the Intiminators can only be damping in one way (that is, the inertia valve is open to some degree and the shim stack associated with the chassis circuit is in some particular configuration, thus providing some particular amount of damping).

The scenario that Rich described involved hard braking then encoutering a bump that caused the inertia valve to open. Under this situation it seems that for however long the inertia valve is open you would experience significant brake dive, though perhaps I'm missing some design feature that closes the inertia valve under this situation.

I must admit that I didn't follow XLXR's explanation why this is not so:

If the wheel hits a bump under hard braking, the wheel circuit/inertia valve blows off only the hydraulic compression damping related to vertical movement of the wheel. That has no effect on the hydraulic resistance of the chassis circuit/shim stack which remains intact to resist fork compression and forward chassis pitch due to forward weight transfer from brake dive.

I'd think that the reduced pressure caused by the opening of the inertia valve would have a significant effect on the shim stack, but that's minutia; the opening of the inertia valve would seem to hugely reduce the resistance to fork compression, thus allowing brake dive.

In any case, the real answer thus far seems to be "use 10W oil, you may need to mess with the shim stacks, and you may need to change your geometry from the geometry that worked using emulators". That's a fine answer. Less fine answers include "make sure that your handlebars are attached" and "don't push the front end", which seem a bit insulting and shocking in a race setting, respectively.

I know that XLXR is not an official Ricor representative, and I know that there's a bunch of good will here toward Ricor due to their smoking good deal and a string of good experiences on the road. I also know that some of the claims regarding this product seem a bit... odd... For example, in other threads here (and again on other boards) I've seen the suggestion that the spring rate doesn't need to be set according to the rider's weight with the Intiminators, which frankly makes no sense from a basics-of-suspension-theory perspective.

I must admit that I find it difficult to separate the reasonable product claims from the hyperbolic marketing claims (the "this changes everything" style comments like "The old concepts of high and low speed compression damping do not apply to the Intiminators") that pervade these discussions. The (past) notable absence of the resident suspension experts from discussions on this subject always struck me as somewhat concerning.

So, I guess that my point is that it would be grand to deal with these questions and concerns in a very transparent way. I'd love to see more explanations, I'd love to see more technical discussion. I'd love to hear why I'm wrong about the brake dive. I'd love to hear more about the particulars of the shim changes for racing. I'd love to hear more reviews from independent novice and expert racers.

I'd hate to see this opportunity for a reasoned discussion of the Intiminators and their characteristics go to waste.

If you plan on trying Intiminators on a race bike, please go back and read post 10. Contact Spears Racing for their racing set up.

That is a warning for your safety. The Intiminators need a different set up for racing.

Suspension set up for a beginning street rider will be different from that of an experienced road racer. From that perspective, the Intiminators are like any other suspension set up.

Most street riders can just drop in the Intiminators, change the oil, set preload, chassis pitch, soften the shock a bit and be done with it. Racing set ups will require more fine tuning.

However, trying to describe how the Intiminators work and how they effect suspension is like a trying to teach a kid how to ride a bike by reading a book. I never really understood how they worked until I had one in my hand and pushed down on the inertia valve and traced out the oil ports. One set of ports for the inertia valve and another for the shim stack. Having two oil circuits that react to different inputs is what most people don't seem to understand.

One of the most common problems with Intiminators that I have noticed across different forums, is guys not understanding how to properly set up suspension, before or after Intiminators.

The members of this forum do seem to have a better grasp of suspension basics than other forums. I have tried very carefully to describe how the Intiminators work and how they work differently than conventional cartridge or damper rod suspensions.

Semantics is part of the problem. People are so used to thinking about high speed and low speed compression damping, it blocks them from understanding the wheel movement vs chassis movement concept.

If I can think of a better way to describe it, I will post it. However, there is no use repeating what I have already said here.

I've seen the suggestion that the spring rate doesn't need to be set according to the rider's weight with the Intiminators, which frankly makes no sense from a basics-of-suspension-theory perspective.

You are correct here, the spring rate CANNOT be simply ignored. The rider sag still needs to be set correctly. In addition, the chassis pitch also needs to be set correctly because of the variation in static vs dynamic characteristics of suspension with Intiminators.

In general, less preload, or a lighter spring can be used with Intiminators. But that will depend on if the rider was too light or too heavy for the spring to begin with. An overly stiff spring seems to prevent the Intiminators from working as well because the spring becomes the factor exerting the majority of control rather than the Intiminators.

I'll add one more thought. I can't post specific set up specs for specific bikes and specific riders. I don't have an SV and have not set one up. What I am trying to do is help guys understand how the Intiminators work and how they effect suspension set up.

One extra thing to consider when trying to better understand the Intiminators is that the inertia valves don't just automatically open up fully when encountering a bump, but instead they open according to the size of force encountered, so effectively only a fraction of the bleed holes are exposed in a lot of conditions, similar to a piston exposing 2-stroke cylinder porting as it moves up and down. So what I'm trying to explain is that they are progressive in nature, so going over ripples won't necessarily see the front diving down, but rather progressively lowering as each bump is encountered. If you hit a pot hole, then that's another thing, but then you want the suspension to act as quickly as possible, and racetracks don't normally have potholes in them.

I know you think you understand what I think I tried to explain, but I don't think you really know what I think I am trying to get you to understand.....

Sorry Rich, but I can't explain it any better. Regardless of your past experience with suspension, you don't seem to understand the 2 different hydraulic circuits in the Intiminator, how they work, and how they different from cartridge or damper rod forks.

Intiminators will not fix other suspension problems. The fact that other aspects of suspension need to be retuned indicate they are doing something differently.

Stay tuned.

Sigh...believe me, I understand the Intiminators, and difference between them and emulators/cartridges. Neither the concept nor the implementation are all that difficult to grasp. In fact, the concept lines up well with something I've been saying for years, that slow speed damping is to control the motion of the bike on the suspension and high speed controls the motion of the wheel relative to bike. A bit of an oversimplification but it's useful in explaining the difference to people.

Anywho...the fact remains that if the port is open and there's positive fluid pressure in the system then oil is going to flow through it. The oil doesn't "know" if the wheel is coming up or the bike is coming down. So when you hit a bump when on the brakes the port opens and your compression damping is reduced, which means the front will dive some at that time.
I'm not saying that this is a problem, I was just pointing out that what you were saying was physically impossible. The Intiminator can vary the amount of damping available at a given time in a way that a conventional fork can't, but it can't simultaneously provide 2 different damping rates. That should be obvious.

While I'm here, I guess I should also say that I disagree with the whole "street and track need very different setups" bit. The goals in either case are the same, to keep the tire in contact with the ground at as constant a pressure as possible and to isolate the chassis from the inputs caused by uneven road surfaces. The only real difference is that the input forces are higher on the track. Not as much higher as most people would think though. The spring/damping to weight ratio on a race bike is only about 10% higher than it is on a street bike set up to handle well, and about 20% more than a more comfort-oriented street setup.

I'm with Rich on this one, damping is damping, you can't have two different rates at any one point in time. That is physics. It doesn't matter if there are two different circuits, at any one given point in time the oil is flowing through a total orifice area. When the inertia valve opens, it increases this total area.

I was also curious why there had to be this dramatically different race setup. To me it seems like the goal is the same on the street or track. The only difference I would think you might need for the track is a different threshold for the inertia valve to open. You want a stiff low speed on the street, just like on the track. You want a soft high speed on the street, just like on the track. But the transition point might be different.

I had the Ricors in for my last two track days, and they worked fine for what I was doing. I'm certainly no racer, but I pushed them a lot harder than I would on the street. I did have more brake dive than with the emulators and 20W oil, but never felt a loss of control issue or anything.

I guess the only thing left to do is wait until guys start posting reports on the Spears set up.

http://www.spearsenterprises.com/press_ricor.html

http://www.spearsenterprises.com/Intiminator.html

Spears has the official announcements on their web site.

The second link has animations of the Intiminator working.

Spears has some nice looking race bikes! :)

So is the race set up available? Can we mod our intims to
the spears set up? The links basiclly say what ricor says, nothing specifically about race product.

Race Tune and support now available (http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=110697)

see this thread for more info

Intimindator review from intermediate racer (http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=110636)

See this thread for more basic suspension tuning info.

bump

I don't have an SV or do any track racing.

So, how can you possibly feel qualified to offer rambling explanations to people that do race and do have direct experience with this? Yes. Track racing.

my Harley Roadster.

This seems like a pretty different bike than the SV and like those are ridden in a totally different way.

I seem to have developed a new hobby of helping guys with suspension on a few different forums

Weird.

I don't work for Ricor, and like you, I have to call him directly with questions.

I do have a good basic knowledge of suspension which I try to share with other guys having problems with their suspensions.

I also recognize not everyone will have the same opinion of how to set up their suspension. So feel free to express your opinion.

I used to be an inside tech rep at Rock Shox, a company that manufactures bicycle suspension. This means that I answered shop technicians questions all day, every day about suspension. Rich Desmond races and SV and runs Sonic Springs a motorcycle suspension company.

The Ricor concept isn't so complex that we don't understand it, and every suspension component needs to be set up. You don't just assemble it from bits and go ride it when there's people that are 225 pound and charging, and 90 pound people going to market. Since were not "puttin' on the boulevard" there's a wide, wide range of setup.

SV rider is usually filled with information from people that ride SVs, set them up and deal with them specifically. I'd venture to say that there's more information here about Emulators, for example, than there is from Race Tech with regards to SV setup of Emulators. That's because were a user forum of SV riders, please see then name of the forum. SVrider.com e.g. not XLrider.com

If we could stop covering the same ground about different circuits and what not and get on with the pragmatic business of setting up the forks with these kits with information from people that actually ride and set up SVs rather than armchair theorists perhaps some practical information could be gleaned.

I used to be an inside tech rep at Rock Shox, a company that manufactures bicycle suspension. This means that I answered shop technicians questions all day, every day about suspension. Rich Desmond races and SV and runs Sonic Springs a motorcycle suspension company.

The Ricor concept isn't so complex that we don't understand it, and every suspension component needs to be set up. You don't just assemble it from bits and go ride it when there's people that are 225 pound and charging, and 90 pound people going to market. Since were not "puttin' on the boulevard" there's a wide, wide range of setup.

SV rider is usually filled with information from people that ride SVs, set them up and deal with them specifically. I'd venture to say that there's more information here about Emulators, for example, than there is from Race Tech with regards to SV setup of Emulators. That's because were a user forum of SV riders, please see then name of the forum. SVrider.com e.g. not XLrider.com

If we could stop covering the same ground about different circuits and what not and get on with the pragmatic business of setting up the forks with these kits with information from people that actually ride and set up SVs rather than armchair theorists perhaps some practical information could be gleaned.

I think the point of the discussion of the different circuits is to highlight the fact that the intiminators will require a different mindset when tuning vs an emulator or cartridge. No need to dismiss an opinion or call someone out just because he doesnt race SVs, he is trying to explain how they work, not tell you how to set up your bike.

My understanding of the intiminators, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, is that they have one damping circuit that responds to velocity (oil pressure) and one circuit that responds to acceleration (via inertia of the valve itself) independent of oil pressure. The inertial circuit can be partially or fully open depending on its rate of acceleration INDEPENDENTLY of the oil pressure acting on it.

This requires a slightly different mindset than the normal setup which responds only to fork velocity (oil pressure).

I think what most folks don't understand is that your acceleration vector and your velocity vector do not have to be in the same direction, and in the case of a motorcycle fork, probably more often than not they are in opposite directions. This means a valve that responds to acceleration independently from the direction and velocity of the oil flow will have different dynamic response characteristics than a valve that responds to oil flow direction and velocity alone. This means you need a different approach to set them up vs a conventional valve.

I want to qualify this with my background, I am not a racer, but I am a mechanical engineer with a very thorough physics background. I don't pretend to be a suspension setup expert, but the physics behind it are something I understand very well.

I have a gen2 SV I want to set up for the track, and I currently have the "street" intiminators installed, so I am very interested in how I should change my current setup (stock springs, 5wt oil) to get where I need to be to put my bike on the track.

This has been a most excellent technical discussion and I am here to learn, please lets not turn this into a flame war or anything like that, if you disagree with someone, lets hear your technical reason why and leave it at that.

I'm with this guy... I have the street set-up as well and I want to drop in stiffer springs because I'm an aggressive street rider/occasional track day rider... how would I approach my set-up?

.85 springs with what weight oil should I be using, air gap etc thanks...

SVs, he is trying to explain how they work, not tell you how to set up your bike.


What I was trying to get at was someone with practical SV experience. As an ME you should know that all sorts of things happen between theory and practice.

It's not that he doesn't race, it's that it's not SV. Can you imagine trying to predict Emulators setup without ever having ridden an SV with Emulators in them?

More on point to this is that it seems to have been posited that the two circuits can operate independently at the same time. So, what happens when breaking heavily over bumps? Like, when approaching a corner that's been rippled from years of braking into that corner.

Will Intimators react to chassis or wheel movement? Theory is wonderful, but even the best engineers in the world do what their racers tell them to. That's been shown as the key to develpment.

What I was trying to get at was someone with practical SV experience. As an ME you should know that all sorts of things happen between theory and practice.

It's not that he doesn't race, it's that it's not SV. Can you imagine trying to predict Emulators setup without ever having ridden an SV with Emulators in them?

More on point to this is that it seems to have been posited that the two circuits can operate independently at the same time. So, what happens when breaking heavily over bumps? Like, when approaching a corner that's been rippled from years of braking into that corner.

Will Intimators react to chassis or wheel movement? Theory is wonderful, but even the best engineers in the world do what their racers tell them to. That's been shown as the key to develpment.

Absolutely I agree that theory never fully encompasses reality, no question. We make the best models we can and go from there.

Anyway, that is a good question on the hitting a bump under braking in a corner. It depends on exactly how the inertial valve is set up, so Ill leave that to somebody from Ricor to answer, if they see this thread. I have a pretty good idea of how it would go down, but its not my design so I don't want to armchair analyze it. After I get some track time on the setup and start tweaking it, I will feel better about coming back here and talking specifics in terms of vehicle response and setup.

I think the point of the discussion of the different circuits is to highlight the fact that the intiminators will require a different mindset when tuning vs an emulator or cartridge.

True.

My understanding of the intiminators, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, is that they have one damping circuit that responds to velocity (oil pressure) and one circuit that responds to acceleration (via inertia of the valve itself) independent of oil pressure.

Pretty close. The inertia valve (wheel circuit) opens as a result of upward wheel movement and closes as a result of downward wheel movement. The valve floats on springs and will open and close even if there were no oil at all in the forks. It is the acceleration of the vertical wheel movement that operates the inertia valve. The velocity and acceleration of the oil has virtually no effect on the inertia valve. Although the oil does dampen the movement of the inertia valve, essentially to prevent uncontrolled chatter, the inertia valve operates relatively independently of oil flow.

The spring that supports the inertia valve holds the ports closed when the wheel is not moving upward and is just stiff enough to support the weight of the collar. The collar only moves about 1/4", maybe less (I don't have one in my hand to measure), in relation to the inner body with the ports. Due to the sensitivity of the collar to wheel movement and the very short distance the body moves in the collar, the collar spends most of the time either fully open when the wheel is moving up, or fully closed when the wheel is moving down. Basically the inertia valve is designed to be able to move faster than the wheel. I would guess the only time the inertia valve is partially open is when the wheel moves less than 1/4" or is in transition from open to closed as the wheel reverse its direction of movement.

The chassis circuit is a conventional shim stack. It is responsive to oil velocity and acceleration just like all shim stacks.

The two circuits work together. The inertia valve can blow off high speed compression damping more effectively than conventional forks because the chassis circuit provides more slow speed compression damping to keep the front end from falling down as the wheel moves up.

Here is another way to try and put things into perspective. A friend of mine is using G-meters to measure suspension reaction on race cars and motorcycles. He has found a high speed compression spike can occur in as little as 1/10 to 1/100 a second. That results from the tire hitting a bump.

However, low speed compression can occur over a 1 second interval. That typically results from braking before a corner.

If you go back to Ricor's website, they have a diagram where the spread between high speed and low speed compression damping is much greater with inertia valve / chassis shim circuits. This gets back to the basic concept of the inertia valve (wheel circuit) working relatively independently of the oil pressure used in the chassis-shim circuit.

To answer the question about how the Intiminators respond to a bumpy road while braking. The wheel will tend to move upward faster in response to the bumps because the hydraulic high speed compression damping is minimized by the inertia circuit, but the fork dive will be minimized by the chassis circuit. Less forward chassis pitch will slow the steering a bit. That will probably require the rider to change his technique in relation to counter steering on the bars and shifting body weight.

Post 10 in this thread has other details about how Intiminators affect suspension set up. I did not post the whole thing here because it is so long.

Taxomy asked guys to post specific details about their suspension set up with Ricor Intiminators. I find it a bit strange there has been so little follow up in that area. Since theoretical discussions about suspension can get rather long, it is probably best to use different threads to detail specific set ups.

I have read a post in this thread that states that the emulators use a shim stack, That is not correct as they use a disc with low speed bleed hole and a spring to handle the damping.

monqy, Did you know that you can get different springs for the emulators? Being tunable is one nice feature of the emulators. I don't know if the Intiminators are adjustable but if they are not doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose for track use as all riders are not the same and may want different damping curves.

Tmod

The Intiminators are adjustable if you buy the parts and the tool for it.

Both Ricor Intiminators and Race Tech Emulators are tunable. Spears Racing is the only Ricor dealer for race set ups, start there if you intend to race. Race Tech has several dealers who can tune Emulators.

In either case, it will take a lot of trial and error if you try to tune either one yourself. You have to start by understanding how they work, how to interpret how your bike is handling and figuring out what changes need to be made. You will have to get all the basics such as spring rates, rider sag etc correct first. I found it easier to get the shock set up as close as possible first, then move to the forks. One unique aspect of the using either valve body is that you can take it out and do a careful test ride just to feel the difference it makes.

In the end I wound up going with CBR600F4 fork internals in with an SV lower leg.

Nice Showa 4 port pistons
Externally Adjustable
Lower fork oil viscosity than Emulators
About the same price as anything else out there, used F4 forks are cheap.
Humane above the triple clamp above clip on location
Cleans up "dash board" on N models
Lots of conventional tuners have lots information on how to tune conventional or RT equipped forks.